Cultural celebrations webinar
We have put together this interactive and engaging discussion that will unpack how we can respectfully approach and communicate cultural celebrations within our services.
“Cultural responsiveness is more than awareness of cultural differences. It includes learning about multiple perspectives and diversity in all its forms, such as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, ethnic, cultural, linguistic, family and individual diversity. It is the ability to understand, communicate with and effectively interact with people across cultures."
(EYLF, V2, 2022)
But ... how can we ensure what we are doing is meaningful and relevant to our community?
We are delighted to have join us, guest panelists Catharine Hydon, Director, Hydon Consulting and Nicky Lewis, PEAK training Manager, NSW FDC Association who will challenge our thinking and provide expert insight into what this mean in your service and how can we navigate these conversations with respect all perspectives.
Transcript
00:00:02:11 - 00:00:38:09
Debbie
There we go. So before we start, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, water and community. And particularly today when we're talking so much about community. We pay our respects to our elders, past, present and emerging, and I always like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the beautiful land that I am on today, and that is the Gubbi Gubbi. And thank you, Catharine, for sharing that with me, being here with us as well today.
00:00:38:09 - 00:01:12:12
Debbie
So cultural celebrations. That's what we're all here to talk about today. And what a timely day to do that as we lead into our next lot of public holidays and I think it's as you would see from the invitation, it's an opportunity for us, I guess, today to think about some of those challenges that we face when we're coming up to these holiday times and other times of the year when we have cultural celebrations within our services and within our different communities.
00:01:12:14 - 00:01:47:15
Debbie
So today, I thought was a good opportunity as leaders to have a big think about that. How do we communicate that amongst our teams, with our families, with our educators? How much is a lot of celebration? How much is a little celebration, and how do we acknowledge our own vulnerabilities in terms of that as well? So I'd like to start, I think, to throw to Jason, just to sort of set the scene about how we came around this dilemma ourselves,
00:01:47:15 - 00:02:14:14
Debbie
or came to be having these conversations within our organisation at FDCQ. But before I do that, obviously I would like to welcome our very special guest panelist Catharine Hydon. Give us a little wave there. Catharine is has a consultancy organisation. She's the director of Hydon Consultancy and she's known to many of us and has been known for a long time in the industry as
00:02:14:16 - 00:02:36:05
Debbie
someone who shares knowledge and skill to also is taught across many states and territories and for many years. So it's a great privilege to have Catharine with us. And we also have the lovely Nicki Lewis down there in New South Wales and not too many emails back and forth. So Nicky and I got on the same time slot tonight.
00:02:36:07 - 00:03:08:21
Debbie
But it's beautiful to have you too, Nicki, as the PEAK Training Manager for New South Wales Family Day Care Association, and for you to be sharing your skill and knowledge and all the wonderful work that you're doing for family day care in New South Wales as well. So yes, Jason, our CEO for those who you have not met, Jason, Jason, deBakker our CEO of Family Day Queensland and Jason, we had a little dilemma back on Australia Day or around approaching Australia Day when we did what we always have dilemmas in our organisation.
00:03:08:21 - 00:03:32:16
Jason
I'm having a dilemma at the moment because I'm really excited to be here both professionally and personally because of that, that dilemma. And I'm coming from Meangin in Brisbane, so in Gubbi Gubbi country, and I'm very blessed to be on in our place in Murrarie here, which means sticky mud. And so I often remind myself that sometimes these things are difficult things to move through and require conversation.
00:03:32:16 - 00:03:59:03
Jason
So I'm really excited to hear from both Catharine and Nicky today on their insights. Yeah, because I'm, you know, like I said, I'm personally conflicted because I'm an agnostic person. I really struggle when it comes to some of the holiday periods like Christmas. I really struggle with Christmas. Yeah, Easter. I love Easter and I love Easter eggs and I love hot cross buns and I want to engage as much around Easter as possible, and yet maybe not the other ones.
00:03:59:03 - 00:04:30:06
Jason
And I'm thinking, Well, what does that mean to me? And how am I saying true to my value? And what does that mean? The way in which I engage with my family. But, you know, professionally as an organisation, we often come across these sorts of dilemmas and and we want to be leaders. You know, we are leaders within the sector and as educators, and we have a very trusted role in the lives of the families and the children's that we're supporting to help guide some of these conversations and to challenge each other.
00:04:30:08 - 00:05:11:19
Jason
And us as an organisation. We've got some really great advocates in, particularly around reconciliation and and human rights and children's rights within our organisation that really progressed in some of their thinking and their approaches in some of the work that they do in Australia Day being one of those and recognising the impact and the hurt that that can cause on our First Nations Australians and and wanting to recognise that, but also knowing that we are on a reconciliation journey and that, you know, some people might attach other views around Australia Day. And how do we, you know, actually take everyone forward around these issues?
00:05:11:19 - 00:05:41:15
Jason
And it was a quite a difficult time for us to to get, you know, through through that. And in fact, we almost put it to the side for one year and said we're going to come back to that next year. And then, you know, we come to an end. Here we are on Australia Day and what is our view and as an organisation that recognises the impact of colonialisation on a First Australians and and that impact and that sorrow that comes with Australia, that was something that we couldn't ignore for, for much longer.
00:05:41:17 - 00:06:19:17
Jason
But also we wanted to recognise that people do have strong views around it and that those, those are the people that we need to be embracing and understanding and supporting through this journey. Because, you know, it's often not necessarily that those that have particular views on things, it might be, you know, on the other side of the spectrum, but those others that we need to work together, we all need to come together to make sure that we're embracing of different people's views. So we tried to take a bit of a middle road, you know, particularly around Australia Day, in both recognising both sets of views and saying that as an organisation we need to
00:06:19:17 - 00:06:40:22
Jason
encourage dialogue and we need to talk with each other, we need to share that and do that within an area of respect and understanding and just acknowledging that we all come from different perspectives and how do we cultivate that within within our organisation. So yeah, we're, we're just at the start of some of these journeys and still still learning.
00:06:40:22 - 00:07:11:20
Jason
And that's why I'm excited that we're here today and having those discussions, you know, where we landed a particularly around this Australia Day and other recognitions, you know, like we were out on social media, we used to go out and promote different things like Mother's Day and Father's Day and whatnot, and we've really scaled a lot of that back and thought, let's just let's just make sure that we're doing things that have meaning and purpose and, and help facilitate these sorts of dialogs.
00:07:11:20 - 00:07:43:04
Jason
And so we really scaled back from our social media and in those things that are really important for our staff and whatnot, we will address that through things like policy. So in relation to Australia Day, we we basically now get the option for well, sorry, not Australia Day all celebrations. So all public holidays in relation to celebrations, our employees have the option to choose whether they take the holiday or not and whether they take the holiday in lieu of another, and that we have respect for everyone in relation to those.
00:07:43:04 - 00:08:01:13
Jason
So if it's not something that's meaningful to you and your job allows you to work on that day and you want to work on that day, and we allow that. If you want to take the public holiday, you can take the public holiday as well and not necessarily a value put but another role. And that seems to be working for us as as we move forward.
00:08:01:13 - 00:08:07:10
Jason
But is that probably all that I needed to share? Deborah?
00:08:07:11 - 00:08:30:16
Debbie
Yeah, I think it's a really good well, it really was a catalyst for us to say, Wow, this has hit us in our organisation. How other people managing. Are we just doing those normal celebrations because we've done them that way forever? I mean, within our organisations and you know, is what we're doing truly meaningful?
00:08:30:17 - 00:08:55:06
Debbie
You know, is it relevant anymore the way we do it? And I think it's a really good time of reflection. And and it was an interesting experience for us at FDCQ to unpack some of those personal vulnerabilities and lean into that a little bit and sort of, you know, that whole notion of learn, unlearn, relearned and, you know, getting a grasp on that.
00:08:55:06 - 00:09:23:01
Debbie
So thank you, Jason, for sharing that. And I think that's a really great strategy for our organisation to have that approach to public holidays and allow people to make the decisions that it's based on, on their values and perspectives. So how do we make sure it's meaningful and relevant? And I'd really like to throw to our beautiful guest panelists in no particular order, because this is meant to be a space today that we're all safe and we can share.
00:09:23:01 - 00:09:49:00
Debbie
So please, I didn't probably say that at the beginning. To all of our participants. Yes, we've got the chat. Throw away in the chat line. Raise your hands madly if you if you'd like to interject in and please shout out if you have a question. We do have questions at the end, some space. But it is it's meant to be interactive and engaging today and so if you have a specific question to either of the panelists, please shut out.
00:09:49:03 - 00:10:12:07
Debbie
So I was thinking about some of the key messaging and thinking about maybe before we get to the "what" we're doing, we really have to unpack the "why". Why do we want to connect with different cultures and why do we want to connect with communities within our community? And, you know, I was thinking, you know, do we even really understand who the stakeholders are in our community?
00:10:12:07 - 00:10:16:17
Debbie
And I know you've got some thoughts around that. Catharine, do you want to share your thinking?
00:10:16:17 - 00:10:41:13
Catharine
Yes, indeed. Lots of lots of possibilities and discussions that I can see. There's some people online, too, who got, you know, will no doubt have, you know, thoughts and ideas in their own practice. I think one of the things for me right from the get go and just really pick some up on what Jason was saying is that it is really important in the in the first instance to create a place, a space where we can have these conversations.
00:10:41:13 - 00:11:14:08
Catharine
So I think and here I'm I'm quoting the amazing Dr. Tim Dean from the Ethics Center in Sydney. He wrote a really interesting article and you can find this online about the idea of creating a safe-to space, not just a safe from-space. So we want a safe from harm conversation. We want a safe space to protect and keep people safe from some of the really complex things that you would talk about in terms of your, you know, cultural identity, etc..
00:11:14:08 - 00:11:35:11
Catharine
So as safe from things like racism, for example. But also we want to create a place where it's safe to raise these things and safe to have these conversations. He he would argue that we're not great at that in the Australian context, you know, where we know we're getting better, hopefully at safe from, but we also need to create safe to places.
00:11:35:11 - 00:12:02:13
Catharine
And I think this is what this is. This is a safe to ask these questions, safe to say, But what happens if somebody wants to celebrate Australia Day? What do we do? You know, what's the way forward for that to ask those questions? And I think for me, going back to your question, I think we've got lots of reasons why a conversation around cultural celebrations and culture generally is an important thing in the family day care context.
00:12:02:14 - 00:12:24:16
Catharine
Number one for me is, of course, that children have a right to be to understand and know the cultural context in which they are living and playing and learning. You know, and we go back 100 years ago, it feels like, to a book that Anne Stonehouse wrote back in the 19, like late 1990s, everybody called Opening the Doors.
00:12:24:16 - 00:12:46:01
Catharine
Some of you might remember this, and she is a great quote in there to say that children have a right to to experience cultures other than their own, because in fact they're going to live next door to, you know, form relationships with, work with people, who are different from them. And we want them to be exposed to that story.
00:12:46:01 - 00:13:07:09
Catharine
And I feel that there's a really important imperative there to be able to bring children to experience them. But I think you've also said it, too, a couple of times. Jason said it as well. It is for me about meaning. So it's not it's not about doing them because someone puts them in a calendar because they will end up celebrating Sunglasses Day and like, you know, Elephant Day and everything.
00:13:07:09 - 00:13:28:18
Catharine
And I'm just thinking I'm over that already. And we've we crowd the curriculum full of things we have to celebrate. Whereas I think if we can come to it from a really strong meaning place in a way that we think about what's happening in our communities, then that's a really fantastic way for children to be exposed to meaning and to what's happening in their local community because they're seeing it.
00:13:28:18 - 00:14:08:05
Catharine
They're walking down the aisles of Coles and there's signs and it going on. So you know, it's around them. How do they make sense of it? I think the other thing for me in terms of why is I really think that for family day care, this is such a critical thing because in fact, you're in family day care, educators, homes and they are creating and exercising and enacting things that are important in terms of their own cultural experiences to a greater or lesser extent, they'll be you know, some of you have them you know, my my family, for example, did sort of Christmas on a relatively small scale, but my sister in law does Christmas
00:14:08:07 - 00:14:31:23
Catharine
on steroids, you know, So depending on where you are, you're going to get a different type of experience. And this helps to help to expose children to the rich tapestry that is human life. So I think that is for me, is a really important reason why we need to think about what we're doing in this space. So it's grounded in meaning, but really has strong connections to children's rights.
00:14:33:00 - 00:15:05:12
Debbie
Yeah, that's powerful. And one of the things that resonate with me right then, Catharine, was that idea of children who have a rights, children have a right, and you know, I was thinking about the many years ago where children perhaps never saw somebody in a wheelchair or somebody an amputation or, you know, somebody with Down's Syndrome and that, you know, those people were perhaps institutionalised or locked away or not
00:15:05:14 - 00:15:28:07
Debbie
part of our culture. And so it was a shock for children when they saw somebody with any kind of other disability. So I think, you know, giving children the right is is one thing to take them in the journey of their lives. But as you said, it's a rich tapestry. So why would we keep children away from those wonderful cultures that they can learn about?
00:15:28:09 - 00:15:47:04
Debbie
Just interesting. Your thoughts, Nicky, Especially especially since I know when we chatted a few weeks ago, you raised the notion of, you know, the Early Years Learning Frameworks and the NQF and the national rights of the child. So I think all of that, those things connect beautifully and with what Catharine was saying as well.
00:15:47:04 - 00:15:49:04
Nicky
Thanks, Deb. Hi, everyone.
00:15:49:06 - 00:16:26:01
Nicky
Thanks for the lovely introduction as well. I'd just like to say, bujari gamarruwa, which is g'day. Our meeting from Gadigal Land in New South Wales in the inner west of Sydney. So lovely to meet you all today. Great question. And I'd really love to speak to two things. Firstly, Jason, to your comments about really respecting the right for the educators to make the decision themselves in order to make the decision themselves to celebrate, to not or not to celebrate and respectfully honoring those decisions.
00:16:26:01 - 00:16:56:08
Nicky
So thank you. I think that's a great gift. I think that you would be giving your educators part of that. Really what resonated to me was that at the core of everything we do with and for children, including our service leaders is about relationships. So clearly relationships are very important to you at Queensland Family Day Care and you're listening to educators and you're including educators and they seem to have a sense of agency.
00:16:56:13 - 00:17:30:01
Nicky
And this is what we were also hoping fo our children. So you know, what happens at service leader level trickles down. It's like the cascading waterfall effect and then drips into all the arteries. And I think these are what I call them, the arteries are the waterways. That's good. Yes, I and so as service leaders being role models, being coaches, being mentors, you're walking, you're talking the talk, but you're walking the walk as well.
00:17:30:03 - 00:18:04:11
Nicky
That's a great role model for the educators as well, because I think I believe we are speaking to service leaders here. So thank you very much for adopting that. I think positive and strength-based lens you saying your educators as having the opportunity to make those decisions and trusting them. I think that also is something that we look for in our program to support our children, also to have that sense of agency, to have opportunities to make decisions for themselves.
00:18:04:11 - 00:18:33:01
Nicky
And speaking to Catharine, your comment about children's rights, children have a right to know their own identity. So in addition to children having a right to know about their extended community and the cultures that are represented in their extended community, they also have a right to know about their own identity and to know that, they feel safe to express that, and that includes that, respecting their culture.
00:18:33:03 - 00:18:59:14
Nicky
So they really are the wise. And I do think that, you know, I can't emphasise that enough and I harp on and on about relationships all the time because I really are at the core of everything that we do. So if we have relationships with our educators, if we have relationships with they have relationships with their children's and children's, children and families, any conversations on the table?
00:18:59:14 - 00:19:33:13
Nicky
Right. So Debbie spoke about this being a safe space that we would hope that any in any family day care educators home. The relationships have been built from day dot. So right from enrollment or even orientation or induction, whatever you want to call it, the same is said. So it's asking questions around and I'd like to know more about you, but I'd also hope that you would like to learn more about me because let's work together to build this path that we're working on.
00:19:33:16 - 00:19:46:19
Nicky
Yes, towards reconciliation. But also towards inclusion, that everyone's rights are respected. So I don't know whether I answered your question because I do go on a tangent, but
00:19:46:20 - 00:19:51:07
Debbie
Beautifully. My minds right buzzing.
00:19:51:08 -
Catharine
can say something Deb, Can I add something in there just to respond because, you know, Nicky and I have had lots of conversations that many things, as have you and I.
00:19:58:04 - 00:20:04:22
Catharine
And it's fantastic to be able to do this with a couple, you know, with people sort of part of that conversation. I
00:20:04:22 - 00:20:19:14
Catharine
what you suggest there too, Nicky, is that we should be encouraging our leaders and our family daycare educators to embrace the complexity that this is because it is complex. It's okay for it to be a little bit tricky.
00:20:19:14 - 00:20:39:12
Catharine
You know, I feel like we shouldn't try and wrap it up in a bow and make it all simple and easy. We should say, you know, sometimes we don't know. And I think sometimes we can go to families and go to our educator teams. We, you know, wondering and say, well, what should we do what ought we do? You know, what?
00:20:39:12 - 00:21:03:14
Catharine
What's the right thing to do here? And I think sometimes the right thing to do is not not easily identified because it's right to you know, Jason said right beginning it's right to do both. And, you know, that's that's a that's sometimes tricky, which is one of the reasons we're going to hang out together, you know in these sorts of forums is to be able to think will have people look at my back, you know, and it's it's it's okay for me not to be certain.
00:21:03:16 - 00:21:31:05
Catharine
And it's okay also for us to change our mind. And it's okay for us to do one thing and then go, you know what, That was not great. And, you know, sometimes, particularly in the Reconciliation Australia Day space, if you do have sustained relationships with people in your and in your community, Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander leaders in your community, they're going to sometimes call it on you and they're going to say, you don't do that and you're going to go, okay, we're going to learn from that.
00:21:31:05 - 00:21:51:01
Catharine
We're going to do something different in the future. And I think it's important for us to think that the "why" doesn't necessarily lead us to a very neat, oh, it's children's rights. Everything's okay. It what it leads us to more likely is, is some complexity that will need to be worked on over time. But lucky we're clever, so that's good.
00:21:51:03 - 00:22:45:20
Debbie
Absolutely. And I think that, you know, what I'm thinking about now is like how we, you know, really get a thorough understanding of the different cultures and communities within our spaces and not cookie cutter any of these because I think, you know, goes back to relationships as well, having a greater understanding and a true genuine wants to have that reciprocal understanding your culture, my culture, their culture asking, asking people within the cultures, within the communities around you, the questions to gain that understanding shows that, you know, it's a genuine reciprocal thing that you're trying to do, that you want to build a cultural competency.
00:22:45:20 - 00:23:23:07
Debbie
Yes, because it takes it takes the boxes. In the Early Years Learning Framework. But if you really want to do that because it comes back to children and it comes back to show and respect, and I'd love to hear from anybody else if if anyone has any thinking around that as well. Jason, do you have any thoughts on that, How we how we really go about ensuring that we've got that true understanding that we're not just saying, Oh, it's this week, this week and it's this week, next week, you know, just plucking those celebrations out because they hit the calendar.
00:23:23:09 - 00:23:41:07
Jason
Yeah, I don't know if I do, but then again, in summer, it's funny because as you're speaking, I got a phone call from an Aunty and I was thinking that and I know they're doing it wrong because I think that they're like, Oh, sorry, a little bit distracted.
00:23:41:08 - 00:23:41:06
Debbie
Maybe she might have some Easter eggs for you.
00:23:44:07 - 00:24:10:17
Jason
But I hope so. I did say I'd pop around and have a yarn and a cup of tea so there might be some hot cross buns, but it's something that Nicky said really resonated with moment as everyone said around I think that relationship. But it's that and that two way understanding and I think in that that really what draws us right and I always think if you put children at the center of everything, that always makes things easier.
00:24:10:17 - 00:24:37:08
Jason
Yes, there's still complexity that you need to navigate through and whatever. But looking at that lens and so, you know, if we understand who our people are, who the children are we're working with through the families that we're supporting, we understand ourselves and where we see ourselves amongst all of that, that's the guiding principle. Isn't that really that should then drive what you do, what goes, what's important and that affects exploring.
00:24:37:08 - 00:24:58:12
Jason
And, you know, this is an incredible practice where educators are helping children explore their own cultures with their families and building and building on the learning and then then sharing it with the other children in their their in their service. And so they're all learning together. And it's a process of learning, isn't it? It's a process of exploring.
00:24:58:12 - 00:25:27:03
Jason
It's a process of play. I'm really excited and right. And ECA in Queensland this Week Under 8's Week is celebrating different play through different cultural aspects. So because what a wonderful way to learn about different different cultures and whatnot, that again has meaning. So and what you do one year is going to be different to another year depending on who the children are in your service and their age and in the way in which you explore through that.
00:25:27:03 - 00:25:50:02
Jason
So that's, I suppose, what I took away from, from that last piece of the conversation is just, just look within, just look within the children and that beauty of educators sharing about themselves as well. Because I see amazing practice when educators are engaging themselves in the learning process and that sharing process with children.
00:25:50:03 - 00:26:07:18
Debbie
And we say all the time, those educators who help their children's understanding by taking the children into the community, Yeah, community can mean so many things by taking the children into the community and allowing them to experience then for themselves to gain a greater understanding.
00:26:07:20 - 00:26:28:21
Jason
And the changing of mind too, Right? Because the more you learn, of course, are you going to change your mind along the way? And then that's okay that we don't have these kept up, these fixed views. So it's a case of like Easter and Easter eggs and hot cross buns and all those good things making already pretty much. Yeah.
00:26:28:23 - 00:26:54:09
Nicky
And so knowing how you go and, you know, I was just thinking because so many things resonated with me just then and we were speaking to the why and I think Jason, you've gone into the how and we've said way too perfect because these are the kinds of conversations the service leaders we want to have with our family daycare and educators, because it is often, yes, perhaps they do know the why and and or not.
00:26:54:09 - 00:27:14:23
Nicky
And, you know, we're there to support them, to understand that that connection back to the children. So I almost jumped with glee. Jason, when you said that it is all about the children. So it's really supporting in our educators to reconnect if they aren't connected. Most of them are, but it's not to reconnect with that joy of being with children.
00:27:15:00 - 00:27:43:06
Nicky
And when we reconnect with the joy of being with children, we want to know more about our children. And knowing more about our children and families supports any decision we make about our curriculum, about our program, what celebrations when and how, why that sort of thing. So it really is the how that can be the tricky part. But aren't we super, super lucky in early childhood because we've got frameworks that guide us, they are gifts, they really are,
00:27:43:06 - 00:28:18:05
Nicky
gifts. I mean, if you think about it, you know, we've got the national quality standard and we're looking at standard national quality standard one about program and practice, five about relationships, six about collaborative partnerships with families. Look, they all relate and you can find links to every single one of them. But speaking directly to, you know, perhaps even quality area one, when I'm when my looking at how or what are we going to celebrate know and also why we can put in there too.
00:28:18:05 - 00:28:37:20
Nicky
So if we are going to our calendar, I know Jason, you like to say, well, Kay paced with the Easter eggs, but if we are going to our calendar in advance and I know you spoke about this to Catharine Sunglass Day and it's mud day coming up. Apparently mud play day, which is, oh, there we go. We'll take that one.
00:28:37:22 - 00:28:45:11
Nicky
But there are so many calendar events and how are we going to choose which ones? And the answer is ask your children.
00:28:45:21 - 00:28:48:03
Catharine
Yeah, and the families to Nicky,
00:28:48:07 - 00:28:49:04
Catharine
you know, I think
00:28:49:04 - 00:29:10:13
Catharine
and Nicky, I think and he is you know, we could just to just keep the conversation going because you can win it, too. But I think for me, there's a really practical thing that emerges out of that, which is let's let's figure out how we, number one, build the relationship we have, you know, a trusting, warm relationship, responsive, reciprocal relationship with family.
00:29:10:13 - 00:29:35:02
Catharine
So we're going to be good at that, right? Let's get that working well. And in the doing, we are then seeking clear information and guidance from families. So I look sometimes and, you know, people will notice I look sometimes at the all about me little sheep thing that we sometimes send to families. You know, you can call it whatever you want, something it's called lots of different things.
00:29:35:04 - 00:30:05:01
Catharine
And I think some of the questions on there, we could really challenge ourselves to reshape, you know, let's ask better questions, let's ask questions in a better timing. So I wonder whether a document like that, if we do that without knowing the families, I'm thinking, what do you want to ask this for? Whereas I think maybe sometimes when we get to know the families, then maybe six weeks later, then we send that document out and say, Now that I've got to know you a little bit, this is the reason we want this information.
00:30:05:01 - 00:30:28:15
Catharine
And I've had a couple of looks at different ones, and I saw one that had, you know, tell me what celebrations you celebrate. And they've got a list of pre pre-determined collection, you know, Easter, Christmas, etc.. Now I just feel like that's already setting you up for a situation where you've already got the predetermined ones already in there, you know, the ones that are, you know, out there.
00:30:28:17 - 00:30:49:14
Catharine
And I think that's that that potentially can be a bias there because we just put the ones that are part of the Christian calendar or ones that are in the public domain that, you know, Kmart pays attention to, although it's worth noting that Kmart has said, you know, it's done a bit of recognition of NAIDOC week. Fascinating.
00:30:49:16 - 00:31:28:09
Catharine
But, you know, we want to look at that and say, okay, can we flip that around and say to the families And here's a really interesting question that I've seen a couple of times, families. Can you tell us which celebrations are important to you that we can participate in at family day care? Because this it's a different question to what's important to you, because I think the the question some as families go, will we we celebrate Eid at the end of Ramadan but Eid is a very significant family event.
00:31:28:11 - 00:31:44:02
Catharine
You know like it's a lot of family stuff going on at that time. But I remember working with a group of families in the northern suburbs of Melbourne and we asked them. It took us a while. I'd could say maybe the third year that I was there we asked them, So, you know, what's the deal with Eid? You know, would you like us to celebrate?
00:31:44:02 - 00:32:00:12
Catharine
And I went, No, no, we don't want you to celebrate it. We just want you to say Happy Eid. But really, we're doing that at home. We don't need you to do it because it's so much sugar. Oh, my goodness, Catharine, So much sugar. Don't you do it there. We'll do it. And we just want you to recognise that that's happening.
00:32:00:12 - 00:32:20:00
Catharine
But don't celebrate it. I thought, what if we asked that question? You know, why did we say to families, What would you like us to do? But we never asked that question before. And I think it's interesting to see what the families want us to do. And I think that's a really important. So it's about the question we ask and the questions we ask.
00:32:20:00 - 00:32:33:06
Catharine
Maybe it's not just one time, it's of over a period of time, and they're going to determine a little bit about what we put on the schedule, if you like, so that we know a little bit more about that.
00:32:33:07 - 00:32:48:20
Nicky
And generally that would happen in advance so that you would then have time to understand, to digest it, to research, to include children in and families in the planning for. Preparation.
00:32:48:22 - 00:33:08:23
Nicky
And that's where we come to the point of making it meaningful. Yeah. So if we are going to make the decision, we will celebrate a particular celebratory event and we come towards the day and we haven't really done much, but we've already said we're going to do it. So we have to do it and we have to tick that box.
00:33:08:23 - 00:33:29:03
Nicky
Okay, so how are we going to do that? Great. I'm going to go shopping at midnight because Kmart's open at midnight and I'm going to go and collect the whole basket of resources and yeah, pop them into my home tomorrow. These will be new sources to the families, new resource to the children that children would never have seen them before.
00:33:29:05 - 00:33:48:22
Nicky
The question is how meaningful is it and will they make the link to the self? Yes. So Easter's coming. The Easter Bunny. I'm going to you know, actually I'm in Australia, so I'm going to purchase Easter bilbies, not Easter Bunny. So and that's going to put them in my home tomorrow. I'm going to pop them, you know, eggs around the yard.
00:33:48:24 - 00:34:11:04
Nicky
We're going to create baskets because that's what you do for a stop, apparently. Then I'm going to put those eggs in the baskets. I'm going to put Easter egg wrappers in my collage tray, etc., etc.. So how meaningful is that? Whereas if you had asked the question early on, is this a celebration that you would like us to participate in?
00:34:11:06 - 00:34:35:10
Nicky
How would you like to be involved in this celebration? If you would like to? The great question, how do you celebrate it? If you do, could you share that with us? And perhaps we can bring that to our program too? And how could we involve you and the children to plan for? And when we're talking plan, we could be talking weeks and weeks and weeks leading up to the could be.
00:34:35:12 - 00:35:05:10
Nicky
And how how incredibly meaningful and I'm thinking of a word, if anyone knows this word, I'll give you a high five because I can't really recall it myself. But other than meaningful, it's another word I'm thinking of that, intentional. Thank you. I thought to you intentional in our way of thinking and planning with children and with families.
00:35:05:11 - 00:35:17:21
Nicky
So you've got the two scenarios. The Kmart mad dash campaign, the wake, sometimes intentional, purposeful. Yeah, intentional purpose.
00:35:17:22 -
Catharine
And the word the word intentional, too, is thoughtful. It's purposeful. You know, these sorts of words, you know, you know that deliberate, deliberate, thoughtful, purposeful are the words behind intentionality. And I think we've, of course, got the EYLF about that.
00:35:32:04 - 00:36:01:05
Catharine
But, you know, Nicky and Deb, you know, I just think that likewise we want to say to our educators, if it is that you really love a particular celebration, that's important part of your family life, you know, and a again, going back to my lovely sister in law, she has several boxes in her in her garage, very neatly organised, I must say, which have collections of Christmas decorations, which she has collected from very many people across the years, including some that her grandmother had.
00:36:01:07 - 00:36:27:23
Catharine
And like a beautiful collection of really history and story. And she sort of lovingly brings them out. Imagine doing that with children, lovingly bringing out the things that are important to you around a particular celebration and then sharing the meaning with that and telling the children the story of why you have a box in your garage and what happens when you bring it out and how you look at those things and can't fully unwrap them and think about what that means to you.
00:36:28:00 - 00:36:53:19
Catharine
I think those things are exactly what you say. Their intentionality. It now might not be that families, you know, it's not how I do Christmas at all, but you know, you'd want there to be other things. And, you know, I lived a little bit in Papua New Guinea and where I was in Papua New Guinea, the all the little villages around used to celebrate State of Origin.
00:36:54:00 - 00:37:16:06
Catharine
And where'd you think what, you're in Papua New Guinea and you celebrate it. State of origin. So some, some towns were decorated maroon and some towns were decorated blue and I just went What is going on here? But it was so meaningful and so important. And again, your celebration could be around the NRL grand final. Like, you know, I don't know.
00:37:16:08 - 00:37:39:21
Catharine
And I think some some of our educators out there with their family day care, you know, leaders are also creating new celebrations, things that are new and different. And it just sort of created because you think how we're going to create one and we're going to do our own one and there's going to be ones that are very local to your little places like the show day, you know, the show day in the local community.
00:37:39:21 - 00:37:47:11
Catharine
Everybody knows that day. So it's going to be very different. I think it's about as well as not a rule now.
00:37:47:12 -
Nicky
And I love that example of your sister in law. I won't tell her if I ever meet her. I promise that. Oh, I can. I just feel very proud of it. Oh, good. Okay, that's fun. Just having those really meaningful stories brings back feelings and memories of your own childhood as well.
00:38:08:19 - 00:38:39:03
Nicky
And often when I'm speaking with educators and teachers when we're talking about that connection with joy of being with children is taking them back to a memory. So it's thinking about perhaps because we can be lost in this world of what to celebrate and what not to celebrate, and then taking them back to and this tokenistic way of doing that because we are ticking boxes, but taking them back to perhaps just even one special celebratory memory that they have and talking them through that.
00:38:39:03 - 00:39:06:15
Nicky
So what you know, why was that so special to you? How what what were you what was your involvement in that? How did you feel when you were involved and then making that connection for them? Would you like your children to have that same experience in your service? So how could you do that in terms of and that's very much about a child centered approach and child directed learning.
00:39:06:17 - 00:39:27:22
Nicky
So thinking about the national quality standard, and that's that these frameworks are there to support us. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. I know I sound extremely excited about having them, but I am because I have to, because they are documents that you can physically sorry, being unsustainable. But I do like to still have a physical copy of things.
00:39:27:24 - 00:40:03:19
Nicky
Oh, thank you. I feel better and mine look like that too. Highlighted with. And he doesn't love a highlighter. I do like the whole. It is in post-it notes too, but I just coming out and, you know, taking them with me is one that I prepared a little highlighted to hold these discussions with them. And so when we're thinking about, well, what does you know, the learning outcomes, principles and practices, which ones relate to celebrations, which ones relate to culture, which ones relate to inclusion?
00:40:03:21 - 00:40:27:07
Nicky
If you go to the learning outcomes and you open the learning outcomes and the key practices within them, then you have examples of dispositions for learning that you see in the left column that your educators can actually go, Oh, well, okay, this is something that I really love to see in my children, or I already do, or if I don't, I'm going to feel fall over to the right hand side in that column.
00:40:27:07 - 00:40:50:15
Nicky
And these are strategies that I can implement. Yeah. Therefore we don't need to reinvent the wheel. Yes, we need to contextualise it because all these guiding frameworks are just that they're frameworks and not to tell us what to put in our program. They're not to tell us what to celebrate or not to celebrate or how to celebrate. And and Jason, I think you said in the very beginning a celebration is going to look different.
00:40:50:19 - 00:41:07:12
Nicky
So any celebration you choose is going to look different every, you know, cookie cutter, because the children are different, the families are different.
00:41:07:13 - 00:4135:12
Debbie
and and what I love, what I'm drawing out of this very rich conversation, is a couple of things, Nicky, you alluded to before about, Yes, the frameworks are there. They're there to guide us. They're our crutch.
00:41:13:05 - 00:41:35:11
Debbie
You know, but they are all interconnected. And we can't have this conversation without referring to them because they are our tools of our trade. But I also, I also thinking about some of what Catharine just said as well about, you know, a celebration for a celebration for a celebration like don't just do the calendar, don't just do the rote.
00:41:35:13 - 00:42:02:09
Debbie
But it started me thinking about then going back to my own history and my family and all the rich learning that comes from celebration. And I was thinking about, you know, it's not just Christmas or it's not just Ramadan or it's not I shouldn't say "just". It's I just it's you know what? It's going back to drawing on the interests of the children and planning that cycle around that.
00:42:02:11 - 00:42:29:22
Debbie
And we might not be celebrating Easter this week if that's not the goal in this educator's home or our community. But we might be having that great celebration about that. The leaves on the trees changing color, because we noticed that when we went to the pot this morning. So we can celebrate Autumn. So it's really I think some of what you both said then was about, you know, what is celebration and celebration can be anything.
00:42:29:22 - 00:42:44:07
Debbie
Celebration can be. Let's just watch that snail climb up the glass. How come it doesn't fall off the window? You might like all those moments. Did it connect? Yeah. So, Catharine?
00:42:44:08 - 00:42:54:09
Catharine
It's, and in preparation for this conversation today, everybody, we were talking a little bit about some of the ways we could describe some of those things. And I think they are macro and micro.
00:42:54:10 - 00:43:15:14
Catharine
I think we should think of it in. So if those two terms are really helpful, it's micro celebrations. So the mini things that you can do in a very small scale and macro ones that might be a celebration at the end of the time. That particular children are with you in family day care. So a celebration the beginning of the year when you when you get to know everybody and you bring welcome everybody.
00:43:15:14 - 00:43:48:04
Catharine
And I do know a couple of family daycare educators who spend some time, you know, welcoming families at the beginning of the time that they're getting to know them. And I had like a celebration, you know, Twilight meal together, you know, at some particular celebration that they create. So macro, micro, I think really help. I think they it means that you can have you can tune into a particular celebration that's happening in the community more broadly and you can do a micro version of that.
00:43:48:06 - 00:44:11:14
Catharine
So you can think, okay, there's something going on out there. We'll do a little bit of that in a small scale and invite children to think about how they might want to participate, but not make it take over the whole entire thing, like Nicky was saying. And we rush around like mad things, trying to get it all sorted and, you know, everything is so dominated by that there might be a time when things need to be, you know, quite macro.
00:44:11:14 - 00:44:43:07
Catharine
But again, we can think about it in different ways. I think that is helpful. And, you know, again, anything we do because we are all orientated towards intentionality increasingly in our updated framework, needs to be thought through. And also the questions around critical reflection are really important for us to, to add to that. So irrespective with its macro, micro, irrespective of where you are, we ought to ask ourselves the questions around is this indeed the in the right?
00:44:43:08 - 00:45:15:03
Debbie
Catharineyou know, does this uphold the rights and best interests of children? Whom is it? Is it whom is it advantaging, advantaging the gut? Say, you know, you know what I'm talking and who is it? Disadvantaging? And I think that is a big question for us. And it goes to the heart of why we have reflective practice and why we need to engage in the conversations around our own biases, our unconscious biases, and so that we really support the families that we have in our community.
00:45:15:03 - 00:45:49:22
Catharine
We know that there are celebrations that are created to support and uphold the rights and best interests of the diverse spectrum of human identity, which is why we, you know, have different celebrations for the LGBTIQ plus community. We have different celebrations for, you know, family, children and families experiencing diverse abilities. You know, like there's a whole range of things happening out there that you can choose from that you think might also be something that is important to your your particular community.
00:45:49:24 - 00:46:16:22
Nicky
And in relation to that, I think it also comes back to when speaking about unconscious bias and sometimes people might call it hidden curriculum as well is your own philosophy. So do services have a philosophy? Do you how often do our educators read the service philosophy? Does it align with their own personal philosophy? Do they know what their own personal philosophy is?
00:46:16:22 - 00:46:39:05
Nicky
So coming from a place of this is what I believe. These are my values, these are my beliefs. These are the values and beliefs of the service. Do they align? If not, that's a conversation that's a critical reflection. Let's look at different perspectives and then coming from there and thinking about how do we celebrate certain celebrations, macro or micro?
00:46:39:07 - 00:47:08:17
Nicky
And my mind's gone to those children. The celebration of those children leaving the family daycare service, moving into school, for example, some people call it the graduation, which some it probably is something that we would I would like to steer clear of intensive calling it a graduation, because let's think about what does the term graduation mean and who is advantage or disadvantage in this way, and is it child centered and is it child directed?
00:47:08:17 - 00:47:33:16
Nicky
So, you know, classic example is the cap and gown ceremony that some bring to the end of their day year with the children. And you know, why? Why are we doing this? So that's a critical reflection that comes in. Is it because it's something we've always done? Is it because it's something families expect of us? Is it because that's something I really, truly believe in?
00:47:33:18 - 00:47:56:20
Nicky
Is it something that the children have asked for? Is it something that we've asked the children want? So bringing it back to, have we asked the children, are we? And to your point, Deb, beautifully spoken about the planning cycle and drawing it right back to if we know our children that supports the decisions we make forward with our children.
00:47:56:20 - 00:48:20:16
Nicky
So how do we know our children? We observe, we listen, we we share, we invite and working through that planning cycle, it informs our programs and then we reflect. Okay. And back to your point, Catharine, "Holy Crap. I didn't do so well with that one". Thank I'm going to reflect on that. I'm going to do it differently this next time round.
00:48:20:16 - 00:48:53:14
Nicky
If I do, do it again next time around. So it's okay to make mistakes. It is all about. That's why they call it continuous improvement. It is not what point in time where we are all perfect and we are an exciting or an excellent service. It is meeting the very high benchmark of meeting the national quality standard and that continuous cycle of learning, understanding, being belonging so identical that in but generally hold me back. Deb, if I've gone off on a tangent.
00:48:53:15 - 00:49:16:03
Debbie
I'd tell you where I've gone and in math and it's very prevalent in my mind. After receiving the photos, I have, my old eldest daughter lives in England and yes, I encourage you to travel the world and she didn't come back. So apparently that, according to my partner, that some my fault entirely.
00:49:16:05 - 00:49:39:01
Debbie
But anyway, she has two children over there and she's very creative and she and they're involved in lots of things, hockey and birthday parties and dress ups and, you know, their school and their nursery, which is, you know, our kindy. And I received some photos overnight from our little Opal this three loves two loves a Disney princess loves to dress up.
00:49:39:01 - 00:50:04:04
Debbie
And so our daughter allows her to celebrate all things Disney. I cringe, but that's important to Opal. So that's great. She's she's learning a lot from that, like how to walk around those little plastic shoes and balance the tiara. But the photos this week were four year olds, birthday party. And I know this floats some people's boats, but it was it.
00:50:04:06 - 00:50:27:07
Debbie
And where I'm going with this is about yes, we need to identify the cultures that we're celebrating and the celebrations that we're having. But we also have to dig deep about what are some of those messages. Yes. So Opal went dressed as a adorable princess to a Panther Party for a four year old where they had mani/peties.
00:50:27:09 - 00:50:58:20
Debbie
And the ultimate for me was them drinking some beautiful pink concoction from champagne flutes and teasing each other. And she went in with one hairstyle and came out with another. And she was beaming. But, you know, what is the message? You know, for me, there's learning involved. Yes. She's her interest. A Disney princesses. But what are the true messages that that that whole process is sending?
00:50:58:20 - 00:51:21:22
Debbie
And I understand why families have those types of birthday parties for me, I think bring back pin the tail, pass the parcel, eat cake and go home. But, you know, these these very indulgent parties are emerging. And, you know, what are some in some of the celebrations that we do within our services, what are some some of that messaging as well?
00:51:21:22 - 00:51:30:22
Debbie
And I know that was not in a childcare service, but it's very at the front of my mind today. And I just think we have to be careful about our messaging as well.
00:51:30:24
Jason
and think that because as you were speaking or as everyone was speaking for, I was thinking about it all become so simple in my head. And then I start to get complex again because I was thinking about, you know, out in-home care educators when they're going into homes and often supporting celebrations that may be really uncomfortable for them, you know, like it might be ANZAC Day.
00:51:50:18 - 00:52:18:06
Jason
I know it can be a bit of a difficult one for for for different people to navigate. And so and then what where is the place for children as advocates or educators in that as advocates for those where there may be unintended consequences from some of those celebrations? And what is the role of our educators in supporting children because they may children might not experience some of the celebrations that their families have in a positive way as well.
00:52:18:08 - 00:52:37:17
Catharine
And we have to be so careful not to judge, too. I think. That's exactly so. I know. And, you know, we we're here in a professional capacity, you know, And, you know, I've just done some work with the lovely Nicky in the team there about professional decision making. And sometimes we have to make decisions in our professional context, which might be different from what we would personally do.
00:52:37:19 - 00:52:59:17
Catharine
And personally. We can have some positions that sometimes in our in our professional life, we have to say, you know, we're not we're not in a position to pass judgment on families, but we are in a position to be curriculum decision makers. So we can say in this context for family day care, we will be very mindful of gender stereotypes.
00:52:59:19 - 00:53:24:17
Catharine
We will be mindful full of the ways in which we are, you know, make decisions around sustainability. We will be mindful of the ways that children involved in decision making and children set the tone for the decisions. But at the same time, we have to be able to sort of honour and respect the decisions that families make, even though they are might be different to you.
00:53:24:19 - 00:53:49:23
Catharine
I think the thing that we've got to do as family day care peeps is to make sure that we are on really strong and solid ground. When we argue a case with families about why we won't be doing something or why we will be doing something, and we've got to do that in a way that is respectful and responsive, calm and informative.
00:53:50:03 - 00:54:17:11
Catharine
You know? And I think that means that sometimes, for example, if a family day care educator chooses not to celebrate Australia Day, for example, coming all full circle to where we started, it is about how we communicate that and what we talk about with families, not to tell them what to think, but to share our perspective in a clear way and offer families an opportunity to have a dialog with you.
00:54:17:11 - 00:54:39:21
Catharine
I think that's a really powerful thing because it might actually cause a family to wonder a little bit more like, why? Why is that put? Why is that family day care educator taking a position around Australia Day? And I wonder what I think about that doesn't mean to say we're telling you what to do because not our role in that context, but but exposure, you know, telling different stories is our role.
00:54:40:09 - 00:55:17:22
Debbie
And that makes me think, Catharine And we have got, you know, some of our participants here whom you might want to pipe in on this one to the challenge of family day care and in-home care in any setting where we're talking about taking family, you know, understanding the cultures, understanding what's important to families, asking the children to participate, getting everybody involved in the planning, what happens and how do you manage a barrier where several of you families are okay with it?
00:55:17:22 - 00:55:19:20
Debbie
But maybe one or two aren't.
00:55:20:07 - 00:55:22:19
Catharine
Over to you Nicky, what do you reckon?
00:55:23:16 - 00:55:47:18
Nicky
I invite the other participants too, to comment? Yeah, I was a sitting back reflecting on that myself. I think if it comes from let's go circle back to relationships. If it comes back, it does come back to that positive, respectful relationship that you've built from the beginning and an understanding that there's this respect.
00:55:47:18 - 00:56:14:24
Nicky
Firstly, they feel safe to say, No, I don't want to. Well, well done you. They feel safe to say that I agree. And secondly, it could just be something so simple as to say, well, this celebration isn't going to encompass everything we do in our service on this particular day. Micro, it might just be a little suggestion, a provocation at a particular experience.
00:56:14:24 - 00:56:38:01
Nicky
And now that won't exclude your child from being involved in that experience, because again, going back to the Easter example, it could just be a few, you know, shiny little wrappers that could potentially be an Easter egg wrapper or or not places for or not woven pieces that could become an Easter egg basket or not. So your child still will not miss out.
00:56:38:03 - 00:56:42:06
Nicky
But I can say that Peta has her hand up. Yeah. Yeah. Hi Peta
00:56:43:13 - 00:56:48:18
Peta
Hello, oh, it only took me about half an hour to find the button.
00:56:48:20 -
Debbie
Oh, no, you could have just waved your arms in the air. We, all of us who know Peta well, we know we weren't getting off off without having a question from Peta anyway, which is great, but contribute, which is really awesome.
00:57:03:01 - 00:57:07:15
Peta
The kind of concertinaed up over the last since we started. But
00:57:07:15 - 00:57:34:12
Peta
I did a wonderful session last night about rethinking safety with Sarah Louise Gandolfo, and we talked about how do we create an environment that is safe for everyone. And we had a really interesting discussion around maybe we can't. That brings me back to what Nicky was saying about having those conversations.
00:57:34:14 - 00:58:13:01
Peta
I think it was you, Nicky. It's all melding into one now about having a lot of time to talk about things with families and build relationships. And as you build relationships, those conversations can get deeper so that you have an understanding of where you're all coming from philosophically and ethically, but also for for us as organisations, to be able to support educators to explore their ethical stance and their philosophical thinking in light of our frameworks and what they're asking us to do that is new and tweaked principles and practices.
00:58:13:03 - 00:58:37:24
Peta
And, you know, sometimes there are settings that people will choose to belong to because they feel safe in them, and others will choose not to belong because they don't feel safe. So I wrangle with that constantly. I think that that's a really hard thing to untangle because I do want everyone that I'm working with to feel connected and valued.
00:58:38:01 - 00:59:22:01
Peta
And I know that the frameworks ask us to respect everybody's values. I struggle with that too. I mean, I respect everybody's right to have their own values, but I can't respect some of their value based positions. So, yeah, it's a curly one, but it I also have been thinking a lot about the calendar and a lot of times these conversations start with the word calendar, because being temporal people and wanting to put, you know, spots on a timeline, all of all of those things, you know, we think in terms of time and I've been thinking a lot about different ways of looking at time lately and reading about slow pedagogy and lots
00:59:22:01 - 00:59:59:14
Peta
of lovely things about how we use and view time and from different cultural perspectives as well. But I keep coming back to we talk about celebrations when we're talking about calendars, what are we going to celebrate? That's on the calendar. I think us making decisions together as a group of people that it affects but living in a you know, in a society where we don't, there are other cultures and views and perspectives outside of our circle that we're looking at at the moment that we want to raise children's awareness and understanding of.
00:59:59:16 - 01:00:22:12
Peta
As you were talking about that before, Deb, you know, you can't be what you can't see and you can't know what you don't see and hear about that. When we as calendar makers look at what goes into a calendar, I think we've got a really good opportunity to look at what we might celebrate and the process as we get to those decisions, but also what we might acknowledge.
01:00:22:14 - 01:00:57:03
Peta
And I think that there's a place for us to think about calendars in terms of celebrations, but also an opportunity to acknowledge because as we want our educators to have a a really, you know, in terms of looking at cultural responsiveness, that's a continuous journey and it depends on so many factors. But having an awareness about the things that affect people in our society and around the world is really advantages in bolstering that responsiveness.
01:00:57:09 - 01:01:28:22
Peta
So the more aware educators are, that doesn't mean they have to celebrate everything that's on the calendar. But knowing that these things are important to some people in our society, we don't know. I mean, I keep coming back to thinking about, you know, the LGBTIQ plus community in terms of we don't know if we've got children with us that will be part of that already part unknown as yet of that community and their family may have no connection with that community.
01:01:28:22 - 01:01:47:07
Peta
And part of our role is to help them connect with community. So knowing the things that are on a calendar, even if a family doesn't come us and say these things are important to us, it's still important for us to be thinking about, you know, the world of possibility. I guess I think I needed to.
01:01:47:07 - 01:01:53:04
Catharine
Yeah, I think Peta, I think it might be that because individual family day care educators might not have to do some of that.
01:01:53:06 - 01:02:13:21
Catharine
the service level does some of those things in order to sort of tune in more broadly and take some responsibility for that so that the load for determining some of those things is not just in one for one person. The service itself can say we are going to acknowledge a number of things. We're going to send something out to families to sort of to let them know that that's important to us.
01:02:13:21 - 01:02:46:08
Catharine
So we're tuning in to our community. But the the actual decision and the sort of practice is is a little bit different for out for our individual family day care educators. Yeah. I think it's it's great to be able to make some shared decisions is great conversation for the family day care educator team to have you know whether you are four people or 42 people, it's great to be able to come together from time to time and go, What do we think about some of that and what should we decide to do?
01:02:46:10 - 01:02:53:00
Catharine:
It's going to look different this year. Then it's going to look different in another year. Yeah.
01:02:53:04 - 01:02:58:08
Peta
Oh, I'm sorry. I was trying to, I did lower my hand. I was trying to figure that out.
01:02:58:11 - 01:03:01:05
Catharine
I know you did it already. Well done. Great.
00:03:01:07 -
Debbie
I go to meetings mine going... Because I think what? Which bit do I do?I do. But thank you, Peta, for your contribution, as always.
01:03:08:16 - 01:03:40:19
Debbie
And I and I love that thinking around raising awareness of the things that are important to others and the things that impact on other people as well around us and just and just acknowledging. So it might not be it goes back, I guess, to what Catharine says about macro and micro. You know, it might not necessarily be a celebration where it's uplifting, but it's an awareness so that children learn and empathy and ability to acknowledge that other stuff is going on outside of their inner circle.
01:03:40:21 - 01:04:10:24
Debbie
We are getting very close to drawing to an end. So before we go to our concluding comments, I just like to throw back out there to our participants and ask, has anybody got any further questions while we have these esteemed colleagues in the room and or comments or just thoughts, something that's come to your mind while we've been chatting?
01:04:11:18 - 01:04:13:06
Peta
I have a curly question.
01:04:13:06 - 01:04:39:20
Peta
I am always asking this question and it's around how do we help educators to have difficult conversations with families or with their peers around doing cute things because families like it and expect it? So I'm talking about crap-tivities and things, but also that it overlaps very much with celebrations.
01:04:39:22 - 01:05:00:18
Peta
And a lot of the time educators and I see it online a lot, a lot of educators justify it by because it's cute and because the parents expect it. And that drives their practice. And it worries me a lot. And I am always looking for other perspectives and ideas on how we can have that conversation about educators to avoid that trap.
01:05:00:21 - 01:05:21:13
Nicky
I think it does go back to a conversation or even reflection the educator has with on their own philosophy. What do they believe or how do they believe children learn and what do they know about how children learn and then what image they have of children? So do we see children as cute?
01:05:21:15 - 01:05:45:07
Nicky
And what does that mean if we do see children as cute? And how does that inform our practice and how does that inform our program? But if we look back and really view children as capable and competent, you know, with agency who can make a difference in their own world and the world around them, then how will that drive the decisions we make?
01:05:45:07 - 01:06:15:16
Nicky
And so thinking around, yes, the crap-tivities and yes, the cute, cute examples of play, is that really the only goal that we want for our children? Do we want them to be cute? We want, you know, what respect do we have children in terms of supporting them to have opportunities to engage in really meaningful and deep experiences that will maximise their learning.
01:06:15:16 - 01:06:49:03
Nicky
So I think it comes back to their learning, comes back to educators philosophy and thinking really deeply around what will this child take away from this experience and what messaging we're conveying by providing these experiences or calling children cute. Are we, I think in a way, robbing them of the really rich opportunities that we could be providing there then to grow and learn.
01:06:49:05 - 01:07:18:07
Debbie
It's very, very much around that messaging, too. And I'm listening to what you're saying, Nicky, and thinking about examples that we've all had at playgroup where all the educators are still sitting around that craft table long after the children have left to go to the sandpit to dinner to play because the educators are still sticking the little cotton balls to Santa's beard or cutting their head out perfectly.
01:07:18:07 - 01:07:46:11
Debbie
So the child has that perfect creation to take home. That looks like something. So it's, you know, part of it is about the message to the child, which is your craft or your take home needs to be perfect. Yeah it wasn't mine and fix it rather than yet demonstrating you were capable of doing tonight and how clever you were in that moment, even if it was only for a second before you went tearing off to the sandpit.
01:07:46:13 - 01:08:02:20
Debbie
But it's the messaging back the families from the educators too, about the importance of that child's experience within that learning. And hey, they held the scissors today, you know, not that that hat was perfectly cut out.
01:08:02:22 - 01:08:24:19
Nicky
And that's a celebration in itself, isn't it Deb? We're talking about celebrations. That is a celebration. So it's really highlighting the significant moment in that child's life at that particular time, rather than focus a strength by lens as well than focusing on. They didn't cut a straight line. They held the scissors today and manipulated them.
01:08:25:06 - 01:08:41:14
Debbie
Exactly. And I remember an experience that I had when I was working directly with children, where a parent came to me one day and said every day my son comes home and he doesn't have any crafts, he doesn't have any paintings, I'm desperate for painting, why doesn't he paint?
01:08:41:16 - 01:09:07:14
Debbie
And I said, I'll show you why this was a good 30 plus years ago. And so I got out the Polaroids the next day and I took the photographs for her of what he did create, that child, sat on the mat as long as he could at, any given moment to build with those timber blocks from where they sat in the bookcase to where it ended up out the doorway, towers and roads and involved other children.
01:09:07:14 - 01:09:22:05
Debbie
And he led that instruction and there was so much learning, but the parent didn't realise that it in that particular setting that was learning as well. And I can see your brain ticking over with this one, too. Catharine It's such a good question.
01:09:22:05 - 01:09:39:10
Catharine
Yeah. And I think it goes to a whole range of conversations that we need to have with families from the get go about what is our purpose, you know, what are we doing here, and do we go back into the early learning framework and think about, you know, creative individuals, you know, a lifelong learning.
01:09:39:10 - 01:10:05:11
Catharine
So I think educational latest, Peta, you know, a part of the here is to think about how do we communicate this to families from the get go so that educators then are in a position to not have to combat some of that think we will be will still need to do it. You know I absolutely think that we've got a big quest on our hands to try and really advocate for what we mean by play.
01:10:05:11 - 01:10:24:14
Catharine
And and that's a big we know that Early Childhood Australia is doing work on that. You are all doing well every day. But it's it's going to have to be something that we really do. I think we also I think at some point we have to be able to also have some frank and fearless conversations with our colleagues too.
01:10:24:14 - 01:10:47:07
Catharine
And I think again, that's the role of the educational leader, is to call it and to say, you know, in as respectful way as we possibly can do, because I don't want to, you know, destroy peoples confidence. But it's the same time at the same time, I want to say here in family day care, this is part of the children's education and care suite of opportunities for children in our communities.
01:10:47:09 - 01:11:23:15
Catharine
We have a brief and that brief is in the form of the updated framework and the national quality standard, etc. And The brief there is to promote children's learning and that means that things that are that don't go to that, you know, again, sets a central question how does this support children's learning and how does this, you know, fulfill the the vision in the updated framework, which is about, you know, confident, creative individuals and successful lifelong learners that are active and inform members of their communities with knowledge of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander perspectives.
01:11:23:15 - 01:11:39:24
Catharine
I feel like we want to come back to that all of the time, and so that it's sort of like to see it on our memory so that when we are in playgroup and way deciding what to do, we go hold on a second is does this help to promote confident and creative individuals? No, it just makes it look cute.
01:11:40:01 - 01:12:02:24
Catharine
So we've got to be sort of asking ourselves that question, getting culture of asking that question. I don't think it's going to it's not necessarily easy, I don't think, because we've also got relationships with people that we want to maintain, we want to cultivate people. And I don't want people to feel like if they do something, they're going to get in trouble and that we're going to, you know, really undermine their confidence.
01:12:03:00 - 01:12:21:16
Catharine
At the same time, we all owe it as leaders in this sector is to support people to make better professional decisions as they move forward. I what I'd say we don't speak up. How do they know? So, you know, we want to be able to do that as well. So I think this goes to the sort of the ethics that are around this.
01:12:21:16 - 01:12:42:15
Catharine
And at the same time, we go all the way back to Australia Day. Educators are going to have to be at times brave to brave enough to raise the political conversations that are and I don't mean big politics, I mean little politics. It's the it's the everyday politics that is taking place in your community. We have to be brave because our children are citizens.
01:12:42:17 - 01:13:08:04
Catharine
And it says it very clearly in these, you know, that there active members and informed members of the community. So they have a right to know that there are challenges and complexities. And if you're working with outside school hours, children and youth in your family day care context and saw I shouldn't have active opinions. And look, let's face it, we've got three year olds who've got very clear opinions about what should and what is right and what is fair.
01:13:08:06 - 01:13:35:24
Catharine
And we want them to be involved in some of those things. I think that's about us creating a culture which probably goes to the whole part of the framework, which is about collaborative leadership and teamwork, a culture of talking to each other about these things so that they're not like people that feel like it's a bolt out of the blue that they know, Oh yeah, when Peta comes and sees me, I'm going to have a conversation which is robust and this is something that I welcome.
01:13:35:24 - 01:13:51:04
Catharine
You know, I think this is a good thing that rather than say we don't talk about that and don't ever raise those things that we do at playgroup because everyone will get defensive, I don't think is what we mean by professional decision making.
01:13:55:17 - 01:14:19:19
Nicole
You know, Can I just ask a question? I'm coming from a entirely different perspective.So my perspective is for me, I do the social media pages for the In-Home Care Support Agency. So the struggle that we've always had and we've we've culled back all of those cultural celebrating those cultural celebrations because we, you know, we can be inclusive to everyone. So it was cut it cut it back. So you know what I mean?
01:14:19:19 - 01:14:45:00
Nicole
So as we were leaving anybody out, you know, so that was part of sort of how we've cut back on our social media. One of the ones which we haven't done yet, which I'm happy about, but one of my questions is so say for ANZAC Day. I think Jason mentioned that earlier to ANZAC Day for me and for a lot of Australians is a very, very passionate day.
01:14:45:01 - 01:15:17:17
Nicole
My social media is projected to families, to educators, so not to children. So I am coming from a different perspective. But for me, you know, how is an organisation if, if can we continue to do that and be respectful to everybody, but also, you know, to be inclusive but also respectful does it make sense like, hmm, you know, like that's something that I feel is important to post because it's you know, it's to me,
01:15:17:17 - 01:15:27:16
Nicole
I grew up being, you know, that was a big, big, respectful day for our family and for everybody that I knew. So, you know, I don't know.
01:15:15:20 - 01:15:29:15
Catharine
Say it like that.Say it like that.
01:15:30:03 - 01:15:444:20
Nicky
That's a beautiful personal story that others would actually relate to as well. And not everyone will. But I think it's how it's posted, it's how it's shared. It's not what is shared, it's how it's shared.
01:15:44:20 - 01:16:26:07
Catharine
And on page 41 of the updated framework, there is a lovely thing that says, you know, and children, children respond to diversity with respect. That's the outcome we're looking for. And this is evident when children, for example, become aware of their own and other children's linguistic and cultural events. So it, you might say that we are acknowledging this is an important day for many families across Australia and indeed from a very multicultural perspective, ANZAC Day has different cultural elements attached to it, for many people from around the world who were involved in that time.
01:16:26:09 - 01:16:51:12
Catharine
And we we are acknowledging that because we believe that it is important for children to respond to diversity with respect and that the way this is part of our commitment to become to help children become aware of their own and other children's cultural and linguistic events or celebrations. So I would frame it by pinching some of those words out there and just say it like you just did.
01:16:51:15 - 01:17:15:18
Nicky
Yeah, yeah. That's what the frameworks that can help you do. So use the words in there, because that's what guides us and it almost gives you gives our families this understanding of we're being very intentional in. Yes, we're doing things and how we're doing things. And we also understand that not everyone celebrates it. However, we also respect the right for children to know and understand and to be given that opportunity.
01:17:15:21 - 01:17:39:24
Catharine
And it is. It's in the words, isn't it? Nicky, too? It's a response to diversity with respect. So it's not to respond to diversity by joining in, right. It's not to respond to diversity by canceling your own. That's not what we mean. It's to respond with respect, which is to say this is another way of knowing and being.
01:17:40:02 - 01:18:04:08
Catharine
And here we have a very delicious, big theoretical concept, which is otherness. So responding to the other. Now, I don't think you should say that in your post, but I think that's what we know it is. We know that it is about how do I let the alpha be different from me without making them the same as me?
01:18:04:10 - 01:18:38:05
Catharine
And that is that's a life, that's a lifetime quest, everybody. We're all on that and we experience it every day. We go to the supermarket and we want the person in front of us to do the thing we like. Why are they doing that thing now? We we are on that process all the time. The little people, the little children, we are trying to get them to respond to say, I noticed that thing that is different from me and I respect it and I want it to be me and I don't need that to be changed for me.
01:18:38:07 - 01:19:04:22
Catharine
I can let that co-exist with me. And it and it's one of the things that society generally finds difficult to do because we are perpetually trying to get people to do the thing that we like and stop what they're doing. And it's a hard thing for humans to do. We have macro examples of that where people are at war about that and we have micro examples of that in Littlefair in families.
01:19:05:03 - 01:19:35:13
Catharine
So we're trying to sort of do that and teach children how to do it. And it's a very important thing for us to do. Storytelling, as Cassie has just mentioned in the chat, I think is a really helpful way of doing it. Why is this important to some families? I think Nicole too, it would be going back to what Nicky and Deb said right in the beginning, which is we should know our people. If we know our people, we can feel that. What is it? We feel their pulse. You want to take the pulse, right?
01:19:35:14 - 01:19:51:14
Nicole
It's a bit difficult. Audience on social media because now people are from every race. So yeah, we don't it's really difficult as a platform to say you know well I mean you know.
01:19:51:15 -
Catharine
You know who your primary audience is and is it the public or is it your, your particular you know, so that's a conversation you to have.
01:20:01:02 - 01:20:17:02
Catharine
Who is our primary here and what do we know about them. So that's that conversation that you want to have. Who who are we in relationship with? And indeed, what is the purpose? You asking yourself, what is the purpose of social media? You know, you weren't saying, is this the platform to do it? You know, we might choose it.
01:20:17:02 - 01:20:22:13
Nicole
It can't be too controversial on social media. You know, we've got to sort of have.
01:20:22:14 - 01:20:26:01
Catharine
Correct. You have to decide.
01:20:26:03 -
Nicky
The very fact, Nicole, that you've come to this discussion in a thoughtful, wondering way too long. That's why I'm here to get the whole I think if there was an account from from my coming back coming back to how it's written.
01:20:43:19 - 01:21:13:20
Nicky
So you're being sensitive by acknowledging some families celebrate so you're not saying all am I not? It's not a post that that will be in people's faces because you're actually drawing it back to the children. So why are we doing this? You've trusted and it's trust. It's relationships and families who are who have children in your educators homes, trust their educators.
01:21:14:01 - 01:21:39:06
Nicky
And that trust will filter up to the service leaders and to the service. And they pay provider. And so this trust is we're here for you. We're here for your children. We also have these awesome frameworks that support us. We're here advocate for our children, for your children, and we're here to support you to understand further about the learning that your children, learning opportunities, that your children are being provided.
01:21:39:08 - 01:22:03:01
Nicole
Our educators are in that in their family home. So it's a bit different to family day care. S a lot of cultural aspects come through. A Victorian is very culturally diverse, so I guess Queensland is too. But we say a lot more with our Victorian families and you know, trying to find that match.
01:22:03:03 - 01:22:36:12
Catharine
Yeah, and you've got to, you've got to try it don't you, and see what happens and then and then learn from that that process and then refine your work. Yeah. And see, see how you might, how it might play out. I think you got to do it collectively and you know half the time I think sometimes in, in social media contexts we actually need to also be upfront with our with people to say we're going to see what we're going to do, everybody, you know, and we're going to we're going to do some of these things because we think it's important.
01:22:36:12 - 01:22:54:09
Catharine
And this is the reason why. But social media is a clunky instrument. I would agree. Nicole. I think it is clunky and I think we've got to think of a number of different ways we communicate some of these things. Not that that's not the only way you will do it. You will do it in different places. And we go back to the purpose.
01:22:54:09 - 01:23:03:13
Catharine
What's the purpose of the social media post in the first place? Who we aim, who we looking for to come on board with us? What are we trying to achieve? And we go from there.
01:23:07:17 - 01:23:22:20
Debbie
Great question. And I'm thinking, Nicole, about, you know, what Catharine was saying from the frameworks about respond. You know, it's the way you put it, respond to the diversity with respect and the why, as Nicky said, why are you doing it?
01:23:22:23 - 01:23:40:24
Debbie
Why are you even making that post? And then I'm also thinking about, you know, invite people to participate in a positive way if they want to, to share their story, to share that their story connects with that post. And if you invite that, hopefully you get less trolls.
01:23:49:20 - 01:24:02:21
Nicole
Yeah but I like you know I plan every, and have a meeting with Alicea so it's it isn't just a process going out there it's a plan and its got to be approved, and there is a lot of thought into that goes into every single post.
01:24:02:12 - 01:24:36:07
Nicky
Well done. But isn't this a thing now, Nicole, that I've learned from my teenagers? If you put POV on any post that sort of saves you from any trolls or any negative comments because just POV is point of view, I can see Megan laughing. I only just learned that the other day and I actually said to one of my children who did post forward with that had POV showed me I, thought she was showing me a draft and I said, Oh, you might like to think about sitting that post out without the tag on it.
01:24:36:09 - 01:24:44:21
Nicky
And she looked at she said, Which tag? I said, the POVs. And she said, No, that's POV point of view.
01:24:44:23 - 01:25:16:21
Debbie
Well, we do need to draw to a close before Zoom throws this out. And I just want to say a huge thank you to Catharine and to Nicky for joining us today and to sharing their thoughts. And for those of you who have contributed in the chat, we will get to some of that information together and share it with you for those of you who are able to contribute verbally, thank you.
01:25:16:21 - 01:25:29:04
Debbie
Also, before we go, though, I would love to throw to our guest panelists for one last closing thought. Take it away, Catherine.
01:25:29:06 -
Catharine
Well, I feel like I've got I've said some of these things as we've gone away, but I guess I would return to the fact that family day care educators and family day care is very well placed to encourage family day care, educators to share their culture.
01:25:46:09 - 01:26:16:23
Catharine
I think it's a gift. I think it is something that the center based contexts can't do in the same way. And you should be all hashtag proud of that offering to children. And I would want to encourage our family day care educators to think about how they do that, not indeed, whether they do it. I feel like it's an opportunity to think about how they do it in ways that sort of respond to exactly what Nicky's been talking about in terms of child centered.
01:26:17:00 - 01:26:43:15
Catharine
I think it's it's something that I think is is the is the essence of what family day care is about. And if I just channel here the lovely Kim Groth you know, she would say make sure you keep the family in family day care, Catherine, because that's what's really important about it. And I think that is what what a family day care educator can offer to a family. And I think it's very important.
01:26:43:17 - 01:26:48:03
Debbie
Beautiful. Thank you, Catherine. Nicky, last thoughts.
01:26:48:04 - 01:27:29:05
Nicky
Yeah, I think, as Catharine said, I think I've woven many thoughts on that session. And Catharine alluded to my final thought, which is around child centered. And I think that family day care educators are really well placed to know their children and know their families really well.
01:27:06:15 - 01:27:29:05
Nicky
And that gives them a leg up, really, because what that means is that by knowing their children and knowing their families, they know what to plan for, they know the practices to implement. And so bringing it back to the children, so ever, the question is, what would we celebrate? Who that question goes to? Why would we celebrate that?
01:27:29:07 - 01:28:02:22
Nicky
How are we going to celebrate that? Let's talk to our talk with our children about what that looks like and if it's important to them. And then I think that leads into my second, hopefully takeaway, in terms of allow the planning to unfold slowly. And I love Catherine, you did speak to slide pedagogy. It was yesterday. And Peta said it. I was really captivated by the moment and I'm going to read all about that because it's really a wonderful way of being.
01:28:02:22 - 01:28:33:19
Nicky
And doesn't the Early Years Learning Framework tell us to be? And that's what we want. Yes, we want the belonging and I think family day care educators are fantastic in supporting that belonging in their home. And then let's also be fantastic at allowing our children to be and to take the time to learn to be nurtured, but also to nurture themselves and nourish and through celebrations which are joyful moments of memory that we want everyone to have.
01:28:33:21 - 01:28:55:09
Nicky
And if they are a joyful moment, that will become a memory. I think going back to educators, thinking about their own joyful celebrations and knowing that it was when they were involved in the planning, when they were involved over a period of time. If you think about these large I mean, think about Christmas, for example, or even Easter came out in January.
01:28:55:11 - 01:29:13:21
Nicky
You know, the hot cross buns are in the bakeries in January and planning started then. So it's the build up which actually can be even more exciting sometimes than the actual day or event. So, yes, child centered, child directed and slow pedagogy.
01:29:13:22 - 01:29:36:08
Debbie
Perfect. And I'd like to just say to in closing that, you know, as leaders and we're all leaders at whatever position you hold within your service, whether it's family day care, in-home care, you know, as leaders, I think we need to create those opportunities for everyone in the team to feel safe.
01:29:36:09 - 01:30:01:15
Debbie
Lean into your own biases. It's okay. We've got baggage that we've been bringing with us for quite a few years, making okay to trip over, making okay to try things, build that culture where we're all having a go, and we need to, you know, acknowledge that whole notion of learn, unlearn, relearned and stay on that journey. So that's what I'd like to say.
01:30:01:17 - 01:30:28:08
Debbie
And also remember that we have our beautiful PLACE. Our community of practice, that if take you where it's another safe place where we can raise these conversations and raise questions and share ideas. And I'm I heard this. I heard somebody speaking at a Be You conference the other day, and the message was so that we can grow as a sector,
01:30:28:10 - 01:30:54:11
Debbie
it's important for us to be able to share examples of practice. And I think we forget that. We forget about that sharing and we forget about that. Sometimes what one person's doing will support somebody who's afraid to even try that. So, you know, just being able to share that. Thank you very much. Nicky and Catharine, Thank you very much for joining us today.
01:30:54:13 - 01:31:04:03
Debbie
Please, everybody, remember that nothing about us is without us. So we are a collective and this is a been a really fantastic, robust conversation.
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